User blog:Paleomario66/Response to "Why Goku is not 4-D"
This is not a response to just one person's page. This is a response to the arguments in general against 4-D Goku. I won't be addressing Cocotte's dimension since it's clear that it's not universe-sized, and there are no statements supporting it. I also won't go into detail about the feat about Beerus and Champa being stated to be able to destroy the 6th and 7th universes in their battle since this would be affected by my point about Beerus and Goku shaking Universe 7's Macrocosm. 'Jiren is not superior to Infinite Zamasu' A common argument against Jiren being 4-D is that Jiren isn't superior to Infinite Zamasu, but only Merged Zamasu. This claim has several problems with it. First off, Infinite Zamasu being superior to Half-Corrupted Merged Zamasu and even regular Merged Zamasu makes no sense at all. Gowasu made it clear that Goku Black's half was not immortal, while the other half of Zamasu was immortal and made his body unstable. This implies that when Trunks destroyed Zamasu, the only remainder of him was from Future Zamasu's soul due to his immortality, and Infinite Zamasu should be far weaker than Merged Zamasu. As for Supreme Kai's statement about Jiren's power, although he says it's different from any power he's ever faced, he also stated, "He's strong. Plain and simple." This heavily implies he was referring to Jiren's raw power. Supreme Kai's statement about Jiren is backed up by Vegeta and Goku stating they've never faced anyone like Jiren before. Both of them have faced Infinite and Merged Zamasu before, so it would be safe to assume that Jiren is above both of them. Not only that, but Goku and Vegeta were severely weakened while fighting Infinite Zamasu, so it's unknown if they could have taken him if they were at full power. Supreme Kai also witnessed Infinite Zamasu's power, so there's no reason to say his statement about Jiren doesn't mean he's stronger than Infinite Zamasu. Plus, Jiren is later stated officially to be [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWsQLdqUMAInP2K?format=jpg the mightiest foe in Dragon Ball history], which means any other villain/antagonist beforehand, including Zamasu. Beerus being interested in Infinite Zamasu and completely shocked by Jiren's power backs this up even more, as well as the fact that Whis later stated that Jiren's power is already akin to that of a God of Destruction when not even at full power, meaning that Beerus' reaction to Jiren's power makes sense, and it further backs up Jiren being superior to Infinite Zamasu. Additionally, both Beerus and Champa were completely shocked by Goku achieving Ultra Instinct -Sign-, so it wasn't only because Beerus was worried that Goku was facing a dangerously strong enemy like he was against Kale's berserk form, plus in this case, compared to his reaction to Kale's power, his reaction to Ultra Instinct -Sign- Goku was bordering on shocked rather than just worried. Overall, Jiren is heavily implied to be above Merged Zamasu and Infinite Zamasu, so him being Low 2-C makes sense, and this is while Jiren was simply suppressed. 'Jiren transcending time is not 4-D' There's not really much going against this, except for the claim that Jiren supposedly struggled while trying to escape from the Cage of Time. However, this was because he was heavily suppressed. Even if you assume he was on the same level he was at when fighting UI Omen Goku for the first time, that level of power pails in comparison to how heated he became against SSB Goku in episode 123. Jiren even appeared to struggle with the Spirit Bomb against Goku at first, yet Jiren was far from full power and one of the other universes' Supreme Kais sensed a far higher power from him than what he was showing currently. And unlike most time stopping moves, the Cage of Time literally suspends the opponent in time and makes them unable to move as long as Hit can control it properly and the opponent is not strong enough, as was the case for Jiren. Jiren transcending time is by no means an exaggeration. 'Beerus and Goku's clash was not going to destroy space-time' Most people argue that Beerus and Goku's clash was only threatening the matter of Universe 7 and that they are only on a slightly higher end of Universal due to the Afterlife is larger than the Living World and Kaioshin Realm also being threatened. However, what a few people don't realize is that there are indications of space-time being threatened. The Kaioshin Realm is stated to be an entirely separate world from the living world. The afterlife is separate because it was stated to have an entirely different flow of time, if not none at all, meaning it's a separate space-time. Since the shockwaves reached across to two entirely separate space-times from the Living World, this means that the clash between Goku and Beerus was indeed affecting space-time, and that Goku and suppressed Beerus are not only Low 2-C, but 2-C, especially since Goku later absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form, and achieved Super Saiyan Blue, which is far above SSG from the BoG Arc even if you doubt that Goku did absorb the power of SSG into his base form. Goku being 2-C at the end of the first arc in DBS would mean that everyone who scales to his base form or above (or at least SSG or above if you don't agree with the notion that Goku absorbed the power of SSG into his base form). That being said, Champa and Beerus destroying the 6th and 7th Universes would have to be 2-C since within Universe 7 alone there are different space-times, and combined with Universe 6 there are even more. 'The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is only planet-sized' The size of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is was once implied to be Earth-sized, but Dende stated it is an entire universe. There are two conflicting statements here, but Dende's should be more reliable, as he knows more about the Time Chamber than Goku and Gohan, and Goku also stated that it was supposed to be the size of Earth, implying he was not sure. Since the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is separate from this universe, completely destroying it would mean Vegeta destroyed the time of that universe as well, making this a Low 2-C feat. Even if you argue that it's still a universe smaller than the Living World, it would be a High 3-A feat since space-time was destroyed. 'Hit's world created by time skip is a pocket dimension' Vados states that Hit's realm created by his Time Skip is a parallel world, suggesting that is a whole universe, and the English Dub also calls it a "temporary space-time parallel to ours", but also as a pocket dimension. Even if Hit's realm is a pocket dimension, it would be a High 3-A feat due to creating a space-time continuum less than universal in size. Low 2-C is more likely, since Vados describes it as a parallel world in both the original Japanese and the English dub. 'Conclusion' There is clear evidence that multiple Dragon Ball characters are 4-D, either High 3-A or Low 2-C. Jiren is definitely Low 2-C even while heavily suppressed, and those who scale to him should be as well. Goku and Beerus also have a 2-C feat, which should put all characters stronger than BoG SSG Goku at this tier or 2-B in some cases due to the sheer power difference between those characters and BoG SSG Goku. Category:Blog posts